Category: the Rant Board
I'm sure many of you have heard alot about the U.S government shutting down over obamacare. Now, I don't care if you don't like obamacare...this isn't the answer! I have to tell you I am worried. Yes, really worried about what will happen to us. Damn it all!
I feel ya. I posted a link to the Wikipedia article about the shutdown on my timeline this morning because I want people to be aware that they could be affected in ways they may not expect. The childishness of some of our lawmakers is going to fuck up a lot of people's worlds. You should look at the article if you haven't already. It contains a comprehensive list of all the institutions affected by the shutdown.
Becky
It makes me sick but the mainstream media is more conserned about the size of Kim Cardashian's ass. No wonder other country's hate us.
Becky, would you post the link here, for those who don't follow you on twitter?
Well, speaking of what people are concerned about, when I read about the shut-down on my social networking timelines, all the blind people are griping about BARD being down. Mind you, books are very important, and I love BARD. But I think it's pretty narrow on much of the blind community's part to think that BARD being unavailable is the biggest deal in all this mess. As Becky said, tons of institutions are effected.
That is how the media is. They don't have a say as to what they can say on the News. It is all picked and chosen for them. Why do you think there is so much controversy, misunderstanding, lack of knowledge, and conspiracy?
Times may get tough, but they will only be harder if you don't prepare yourself. do research. Ask more questions and don't just take explanations at face value. Do some research to find out exactly why the Government had to be shut down, and see how it will affect you. It might still make you pannick, but not as much if you have a better idea of exactly what will/should happen.
Ryan, you said "why the government had to be shut down", and that's where your wrong. the government didnt' have to be shut down. And tell the people who've been furlowed not to panick. Just give it a shot. Tell the people that have to work without immediate pay. Tell them it's not that big a deal and that they'll feel better after taking the time to research it all...I guarantee you, you'd probably get a smack in the face. lol. The reality is, for some people, it's really not looking good right now. They really are screwed. And all because a handful of petulant congressman are choosing to stomp their feet and pull their pigtails in protest of something that wouldnt' affect them, specifically, in a positive manner.
I for one do my research. At first I thought the shutdown was propaganda so I looked into it. It's...well...shocking isn't a strong enough word. Having a stail mate in the government is unacceptible!
I'm speaking in terms of people in general. There is some predictability to this whole thing. If you didn't see something like this coming, and you worked a job that either involved federal pay or have to receive some pay form from the government, you should have seen something was going to happen. It isn't something that can be looked at as if it isn't a big deal. However, you do have a say in what you do and how you earn an income. If you feel that you can rely on the Government to live soundly, I hope this is a lesson for you that you can't. There are situations beyond some people's control, and I am sorry if anyone has to suffer yet again because they don't have an option right now. But I won't cradle the people who feel the government will keep them sound. I won't feel bad for those who continue to live a sucky lifestyle because it is the way of life for them, while there are many ways to turn around. And even though the government is shut down, this is not an end-all, be-all situation. You can still get help if you need it.
The only reason the government can't serve the country's population is because we elect dooffisses to congress who:
a. Have too much money in the first place,
b, cater to the richest of this countries population because they rely on them for fundraising come next election.
c. Have prejudices against the poor because they themselves haven't really had to live the life of someone who relies on the government in many cases, so who cares about those people, right?
The truth is, without those hard-working federal employees (I dont' mean congress), this country as we know it today wouldn't be as profitable nor the system as complex. They, like the employees of private businesses, should be able to rely on the idea that they can go to work the next day and get paid. And on that note, in fact, private businesses can't give employees more of a guarantee than the government can, so how is working for them any better.
Then, don't forget, there are those people who truly do rely on the government because they truly don't have anywhere else to turn to. There are such people. And the reason they rely on the government is because the government has established certain programs that were designed to help them. If the government isn't going to help it's people, why the hell do we pay taxes?
Truth is, we see, clearly now more than ever, that we can't rely on the generosity of the rich, inddividually, to help those in need when necessary. If it were up to some of those greedy bastards, they wouldnt' pay a single penny of taxes and they wouldn't contribute where necessary unless they had specific filanthropic obligations to fulfill due to political reasons. If it weren't for some government programs and certain laws against discrimination, labor, wage regulation, etc., we'd be in very poor shape--The lower class I mean.
So please, if you have the answers for this alternative help you so fervently advocate, why not stop telling people that they dont' need to rely on the government and start telling them what resources they can lean on in hard times. Otherwise, don't throw out a schpeel you've probably heard from right-wing politicians, media pundits and maybe even family members whose interests lie more with themselves than the rest of the nation's people.
While I do agree with bernadetta on this, I will say one calming thing. This is not the first time this has happened. The government has gone into shut down before, and it probably will again in the future. We're not doomed. We will be just fine.
However, you should take something away from this. Next time, when you go up to the voting booth, think more about the people you're electing to congress. You have choices people, and its high time you started taking advantage of them.
I'm reminded now of a board posted long ago about voting. Many of the people now complaining on this board said they wouldn't vote on that board. If you didn't vote, (assuming you are old enough to vote) shut up. You surrendered your right to complain about the government when you chose to not take part in the civic process. You don't get the luxury of not performing a civic duty, then complaining when the civic system doesn't work the way you think it should. You want to be able to complain, vote next time. If you want to stay home on voting day, then stay home on days like today when you have something to complain about. You didn't contribute then, you don't get to contribute now.
Except that it isn't and never has been the average schmoe's vote that decided matters, at least not as far as voting for, say the president.On a local level maybe, but I'm not even so sure of that much anymore. The only reasonI bother to vote is so that I don't surrender my rigt to complain about the stupidity and unreliability of those we elected.
Chill out, I did the research and keep up with it all like the rest of you. I understand that government is dead locked and it looks as if they will not fix anything any time soon. However, I'm positive that some of the people in Congress know that millions of americans rely on government funded programs, such as social security and there for if it gets close to becoming an issue of shutting something like that down I'm sure something would happen.
Lets just face the facts, thats what all the blindies are worried about, besides bard, isn't it.
I'm sure most of the Congress members have parents who are elderly and who receive some portion of social security. They aren't going to let it effect their family if they can help it.
But like Cody said, maybe take something away from this, look in to getting a job. If you are disabled and unable to work do to a debilitating disability then my hat goes off to you, you are using a program designed for that type of situation. However, if your only disability is blindness and a serious case of being lazy, maybe look in to getting a job. The smallest thing will make a difference. Most claim there are not jobs in their area they could get and this might be true, but whatever happened to volunteering. Every county has a school, go read books to the kids or something... Just an idea!
Agreed Bernadetta, and also well-said Cody. Ryan, those Federal employees may rely on the government for their job, but then, what working person does not? The company I now work for just had one of it's branches shut down due to lack of funding, and what's to say the branch I work for might not be next? If they do, I'm screwed, because I rely on my employer for my paycheck. We all rely on our employer, or some source, like the government, for financial income, so what you're saying is pretty unrealistic.
Tila, if something like Social Security comes close to getting shut down, Congress probably will get their act together, but not because they actually give a shit about the people who depend on that program. Not even their elderly parents, because the fact is, most of those Congress people came from rich families where the parents can support themselves, or the Congress person in question has enough money of their own to support a parent. If Social Security is in danger and they get their act together, it'll only be because they will worry about getting re-elected if they don't. If Social Security went down under their watch, they know their chance of re-election would be in danger, and that, above all, seems to be their priority, not the people they supposedly serve.
That is all very true lol. I hate to say it but since I was a teenaged, i'm not 24, my parents have said that they didn't know why they took social security taxes out of our pay, there is no way SSA will be around by the time I am 67 or how ever old you have to be these days to claim. Its crazy, but worse could happen. I just feel bad for those little kids who rely on wick and stuff like that. Its not only effecting us, but its effecting pour innocent children.
TT, I know you mean well, but I have to say: You're living on cloud nine if you think that the members of Congress who managed to lead to a government shutdown would stop their antics if it came down to Social Security recipiants losing their monthly check. Haven't you heard? Those are the people who have been trying to cut SS for years. And they're not the only ones.
Also, volunteering is great. I volunteer myself. but guess what? That's inherently different than getting a job as you suggested. Call me callous, but reading to little children for free might help with your mental state, but it wont' put food on the table for your own kids. That's a real worry for people who have them.
And yes, cody, the government shut down before. And we might be all right as you say when it shuts down again after this. But what pisses me off is that it was totally unnecessary. It didnt' have to come to that.
A very small percentage of babies which were elected to represent us decided to boohoo about things that dont' concern them directly anyway. And that's basically what it boils down to. I agree about the voting thing, by the way.
I agree with Cody and Bernadetta.
And BryanP22, how about backing up your claims rather than just spouting off that votes never count? That's a cop-out, a rather panty-waisted unmanly cop-out at that.
thank you, Bernadetta and Cody. very well said.
Ryan, please, please, shut up, if you can't seriously think about the big picture here.
it's easy for you to sit there and say this isn't a big deal, when you get your paycheck, financial help from family members, or some other form of small income, but for crying out loud, consider the parents who are unable to put food on the table for their kids, or otherwise provide for their families.
that has to be one of the biggest figurative ball crushers ever, not to mention hard to wake up everyday, wondering if things will pan out, and what will come of you/your family.
We need to remember that the ones who are in congriss have been there for years. They have no term limits. I certainly didn't vote them in.
Per Chelsea’s request, here is the article that contains the list of all institutions affected by the shutdown. It is from Wikipedia, but I’m pretty certain that it’s accurate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_2013
If you read it, I believe you’ll find that many American citizens are not, in fact, fine. Countless people have already had, and will potentially have, their lives turned upside-down by this stupidity. I advise everyone to have a look at the list. You could be in danger and not even realize it. As has been mentioned, families who use WIC have already been affected. The article also states that funding for Voc Rehab agencies could be terminated. Furthermore, if the shutdown lasts long enough, veterans will not get their payments in November and are already unable to file new claims. Notice how, once again, the problems of the U.S. government fall on the backs of the poor and disabled. What I also find quite disturbing is that routine food safety inspections and car recalls have ceased.
I’m not going to comment on Social Security and other government programs, nor am I going to get into employment opportunities for people with disabilities. Those are big, separate issues, and I really don’t want to get any higher on my soap box than I already have. I’ll just leave you with one final thing to think about. Here’s another article:
http://theweek.com/article/index/250456/why-other-countries-dont-shut-down-their-governments
If you read this one, you’ll see that our stupid ass government is really the only one that has ever descended to this detestable level to solve its problems. I’d think it’d be enough to make anyone rethink their citizenship!
Becky
This is why I tend to stay out of political topics. I didn't mean to come across like the poor and those who have to suffer because of this should stop whining. What I was trying to say was along the lines of what Brittany was saying.
My family would do anything to make sure I am financially sound, but I don't accept a dime from them unless I absolutely need it. SSI has helped me through school, plus the funding I receive from Financial Aid.
I don't consider myself to be a member of any political party. The two big parties frustrate me. I take ideas from both Conservative or Liberal ideas, depending on the issue, but sometimes I don't agree with either.
So now that I've apparently stirred the pot up here, not really meaning to, I guess I'll just sit back and let this go. Politics isn't for me, so I'll just keep voting third party from here on out.
Ryan, thats' a cop-out, quite frankly. You still haven't really backed up your not-well-thought out nonsense from before. You realize, you're only one person. One student. One...You only really have to take care of yourself. You also realize that being on SSI and getting funding from your school are, in fact, forms of relying on the government. Very much so. In fact, you'd be singing a totally different tune if SSI checks were affected by this shutdown, I'm sure. You might not have an ideal family situation, gathering from your previous posts on other boards, but you acknowledge that your family would help you if you wre in need. What if they weren't there to help you. What if you couldnt' find a job, despite how hard you might be hunting for one? Simply put, you'd fall on your face and you'd be forced to admit that you're not really as self-reliant as you would ideally want to be.
If you had to feed a baby on your meager income, with the help of wic, for instance, you'd also be singing to a different tune.
I say this because you're only looking at this from your own, falsely secure perspective. You accuse people of relying on the government too much, but what about you? What if your family decided never to give you a dime, even if you needed one? You wouldn't be talking so big...And the reality is, most people who either have families of their own to take care of or rely on the government for work or support dont' have many security blankets.
Please open your mind to the plight of others and think before you speak insensative nonsense.
The truth is, the government was designed to govern it's people, and in this country, to help it's people. And our representatives failed us, again, in this instance.
I used to stay out of political stuff as much as I could as well. But then I realized how we are all affected.
thank you, thank you, thank you, Bernadetta.
Ryan, instead of backing out of something due to being jumped on for your insensitivity, how about educating yourself, or perhaps, as I've said, thinking about the bigger picture we're facing?
I realize many people have the misguided view, "I'm not faced with it, as far as I know. therefore, I can live in my bubble, thinking my family will always be there for me to fall back on." but, seriously, get your head out of your ass, and really, truly, learn to see things from a broader perspective, or at least make an effort to.
don't just say, "politics isn't for me, so I'll stay out of it." if it isn't for you, then why did you get involved in the first place? just sayin.
Just one thing I'm going to say here, since I'm not American and this isn't affecting me on a gut level:
Ryan is probably more than capable of simultaneously backing away from this discussion and trying to further educate himself. He doesn't have to stick around and watch an ass-whipping in progress to know that 1. he may have stepped on toes and 2. he may simply not be cut out for discussion. However, if he goes and learns from this, that's all that matters. He's got nothing to prove to any of us, just keep that in mind when you're jumping on him or calling him a coward.
Oh I completely agree Bernadetta, it should never have come to this, and if you look at my facebook timeline you'll see my opinion of it. However, we will be alright as a nation. We will recover.
Now, before anyone says I'm being heartless, let me point something out. Both of my parents work for the government. My stepfather is a coast guardsman, and my mother is a nurse on a navy base. They are both facing the obstacles of paying bills without paychecks. I know things are bad right now, but don't lose faith in our republic.
As bad as things are, this gives me hope. I am hopeful that the people who are now angry, will stand up and do something about it. I'm hopeful this will signal the end of the republican party that I've seen coming for years. I'm hopeful this will open the door to the third parties who want to prevent things like this and give the American people choice. I'm hoping this will get people out in the streets, get them to scream and beat their fists until they're listened to. I'm hopeful this will make the young people of our country realize that they are the ones in control, and if they would simply get off their ass for a bit and educate themselves, they could make an enormous difference in our nation.
So don't give up hope everyone. Don't let this make you think that America is lost. Think of the veterans who, despite the closing of the government, broke in to the world war II memorial to honor their comrades. Use the anger you're feeling now, and do something about it. Don't just bitch, make a difference.
Ryan is also capable of realizing that all we're doing is trying to get him to think, rather than attacking his worth as a person.
so, Greg, before you start your usual shpiel of attempting to get people to shut up, when they say something in a way you can't handle, take your own advice, and stay out of discussions that are too heated for your thin skin.
I think the evidence pretty much speaks for itself. Obunghole is still president after all.
What evidence are you speaking of exactly? Do you think things would have been different with the magical morman in the whitehouse? Do you really have that little knowledge of how the civic system works in this country? How sad.
Chelsea, you have a nasty habit of making erroneous deductive leaps and then trying to hammer someone without merit. In the interest of making my stance on this perfectly clear, I say the following:
1. Ryan did speak out of turn, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with calling him on it. This was done. I applaud those of you who called a spade a spade.
2. Ryan then came back, basically admitted he was in over his head and decided to go elsewhere. In my view, that's an end to it, because he's made the first step.
3. After this point, any of you who keep badgering Ryan, calling him a coward and whatnot, are simply throwing your weight around. I'm not thin-skinned in saying that, because I know that making this stance known invites some of you to try (and I do say try) to flame me in response. We're talking about a guy who said a couple of rather thoughtless things and who deserved to be called out for it. We aren't talking about a person who needs to have a mistake ripped apart even after wrongdoing (or in this case, a simultaneous disinclination to carry the point any further). Do you get some pleasure out of telling someone who's already bowed out how wrong or cowardly or stupid they were? If so, then have on I guess. I know I can't stop you. But this says more about you than it does about Ryan. He fucked up. Let it go, for pity's sake.
Greg, the reason I called him out on it the second time around is because I've heard the stance he took a few too many times from people with similar oppinions in recent weeks. It just boiled my blood to hear him state such an oppinion and then back out of it by saying he doesn't want any part of politics anymore. To me, it felt like exactly what happened with this government shut down: People who didn't know what they were talking about decided to take an ignorant stance and then wash their hands of it in the interest of saving face.
It irks me when people cop out, when they don't admit they were wrong but plainly back down, pleading disinterest, when clearly they are still of the same oppinion as they were before. Ryan never said he changed his mind about what he stated previously, and I recall asking him to further expand on how people can find other resources to rely on besides their government, when in some instances there simply aren't any. I challened him on that because he so fervently insisted that indeed, there were plenty such resources and the government isn't something anyone should really rely on. He failed to take on the challenge, that makes it a cop out.
Maybe calling him out on it a second time was a knee-jerk response, but I felt it had to be done in this instance. Maybe because I feel strongly about this topic and I so vehemently oppose his stance--and I have reasons to back mine up.
If that makes me an instigator, then I guess that's that. I'm not out to attack anyone personally.
I dont' think ryan is a bad guy, I just think he needs a reality check, and I don't hesitate to give him one in this instance.
That's all you'll probably hear from me regarding this topic, so I'm done. lol.
Oh, and if you're wondering why I think it's necessary that ryan get's a reality check regarding this, it's because that would be one less person in this country who doesn't get one. One less such attitude. It only took a fraction of our congress with this attitude to turn some people's lives upside down. It only took a small percentage of self-absorbed ignoramuses to leave millions high and dry. (I don't think ryan is an ignoramus by the way, in case someone get's on my ass about that). The more people adopt a wider view of this country and it's people along with their plight, in my oppinion, the better off we'll be.
I don’t think we’re doomed in the short run, but there will undoubtedly be some rough sledding, particularly as we get closer to the debt ceiling issue. If the Republicans create yet another crisis within a crisis and we don’t fund the government enough to pay our bills, we could send the world into a spiral from which it could take years to recover. I have a government job, and yes, I might be furlowed, but at this point that’s frankly the least of my worries. BARD is down, but again, that’s the least of my worries since I have scores of books and can do other things online including come here and spout off for what it’s worth. But like Cody, I do hope the Republicans are doomed. I,for one, intend to make it a reality by voting against my House member in 2014, regardless of what part he played or didn’t play in the current debacle. To my knowledge, he didn’t vote against the shutdown because he’s too afraid of a small, cowardly contingent in the Republican party – a party that in the past has seen some pretty good presidents. But the fact that he didn’t stand up for what was right, and was obviously only one of many, tells me that the current brand is destroyed and in my mind must be punished.
There is, however, one thing that worries me. I do hope Cody is right that the republic is not yet doomed, and largely I agree with him, But history teaches me that precedent can have an awful way of coming back against us in later generations. We had a government shutdown back in ’95, and maybe that wasn’t a bad one in the grand scheme of things. But the fact that we had another one at a time when we’re in considerably more straightened circumstances than we are now, and at a time when we’re significantly more polarized than even then, worries me. This can be looked upon as a new form of political terrorism by either party. It creates instability and a constant air of crisis. It certainly has done now. Maybe none of us on this board will live to see it but too many people playing uber-politics can lead to people questioning whether or not we really need a deliberative, democratically elected body that has actually served us extremely well in the past. Maybe someday we’ll shuck the congress altogether in favor of one strongman because representative government simply doesn’t work anymore. By no means am I saying this could happen anytime soon, but I do think it’s something to consider now so that it doesn’t perhaps happen 100 years from now. But then, we’ll all be dead, so who cares?
once again, Bernadetta, you said what I was gonna say.
no, it wasn't pointless to call Ryan out again, as he needs to know how stupid such remarks are.
like Bernadetta, I've seen people spew nonsense like he has done, time and time again. it's ridiculous, and needs to be stopped, if possible.
also, I find it ironic that Canadians are jumping on us, for jumping on someone, when they don't even live here, or can't even begin to imagine why issues like these have many of us on fire.
BryanP22 try and refrain from schoolyard names. So you and many others don't like Obama's performance, or ideals, or a combination. Or maybe you're just on the fad train of talking about birth certificates. Who knows? With fluff statements like "it doesn't matter anyway," or name calling, it's hard to tell.
Cody has certainly made a case for third party(s), and I think anyone with half a brain can see why. So why don't you forsake the 12-year-old name-calling "who cares anyway" responses and tell us why. Oh, and the tried and trivial "It's all a cover-up, it's all a conspiracy" doesn't count for much.
Are you saying that former President George W. Bush was better? Or what part are you upset with the Executive branch at this point? Many who profoundly disagree with Obama's policies of one form or another, at least didn't sleep through that part of Government or Civics class which would tell them this is on the legislature. That's the second branch of government, byu the way, made up of the House and Senate. So let us know, when you have something productive.
Bernadetta, if this is a topic that you feel strongly about, I commend you at the least for standing up for what you believe strongly. It hasn't happened often, but when so many people disagree with me on something it makes me step back and question it myself. I haven't had time to look for a program/way for people to get help outside of the government because I had two exams to study for which is probably also the reason why my last post was more so along the lines of a cop out. I browsed the posts above me, and my mind wasn't strictly focused on writing here. It's ironic though. I thought I knew more and had a better stance, but I guess I have to take my own advice in my first post and learn more when I have a chance.
Chelsea, I know you can handle harshness because you dish it out, so here goes. You yourself did a shitty job of arguing points yourself. You tell me to get my head out of my ass, while you squawk and echo what everyone says like a parrot. Don't tell me to shut the fuck up when you can't even demonstrate that you can make a solid point by yourself like an adult. I've respected you for a while, but I've seen this noticeable pattern of yours recently. Get a grip. It's not how blunt, agressive, or tough you come across. It's what you say and how you present an argument. Otherwise, as I have done earlier, people can't do anything but chuckle and skim past your ridiculous copy-cat, pointless, hyped up posts. You've proven that you are blunt and don't take shit, I assure you.
I don't need anyone to tell me that I can't defend my opinions, as that's far from true and you know it. come back when you get over your angrer issues.
thanks for the laugh, though, regarding the squawk like a parrot comment. I needed that.
I appologize guys, I guess I need to get my anger issues straightened out apparently.
One thing I forgot to mention in regards to the family issue (I appologize again for being slightly off topic). The closest family members either have issues of their own as I mentioned elsewhere, and my grandparents should be enjoying the time they have now since they are getting older. I have a couple aunts though that recently reached out and told me if I needed anything to let me know. I'm so used to being self-relient though, that right now it's just a thought to keep in mind. I guess it's because they see I'm trying, unlike many of my cousins to do well, and trying to set an example for my younger brothers and sisters.
Having said this, I can't imagine how tough it must be for those who truly need this, but have nothing. It must be so hard to move on and stay on your own feet. I see now one of the biggest problems with what I was saying was this. Not everyone who uses Government programs is abusing it. Some do, but not everyone. It was rather obvious and I should have known better.
One final thing. Going back to the family, and what Cody and others have said about the Republicans. That caught my interest because most of my family consider themselves Republicans. I've observed what has been said and want to learn more, plus it should be interesting to see what the family has to say on the matter. They can't be happy, that's for damn sure. I haven't talked to anyone since before this happened which wasn't that long ago.
Johndy, I understand your fears, but I honestly think this will be a stimulus rather than a destruction. I think this will finally gte people angry enough to do something. Maybe it will finally get the younger voters to get out and vote and take the power away from the elderly. I have nothing against elderly, but you shouldn't be making decisions for our long term future, you won't be around to see it. The kid who is twenty years old will be around to see it.
Ok, Ryan. No problem. My mission was to makeyou realize that you have a long way to go in the way of educating yourself on this matter. And you've acknowledged that, and I respect you for doing so.
I figured that your family leans twoard the republican party, and that's why I mentioned taht you probably grew up around the idealogy that government is not to be counted on, that people should help themselves, etc. etc. I recognized that instantly. You need to understand something about the majority of the republican party: Most of them have money. Most of them are self-sufficient. But most of them didnt' become that way on their own, but inherited their wealth or raised it through campaignes, etc. There really are people who would like to depend on themselves entirely, but they simply can't. You sort of belong to that category, since we'd both agree that you would have a much harder time surviving without the aid you get.
That being said, I'm glad you are making an effort to be self-sufficient. Like you said, some people do abuse the government's programs, but that's a small minority. In many cases, as we've said before, the government aid is a godsend for those who have nowhere to turn to.
That's what i was trying to get across.
Cody, I almost agree enitrely with your last post, save for one point. If twenty year olds are going to take charge and direct the political and economic state of this country, who's going to be sensative to the needs of the senior citizens that are currently still around? Maybe you and I may be empathetic to other people's needs, and you're right, the elderly won't get to be around when it's our time to be seniors, but you'll have to agree that most people our age dont' really know about, nor do they give a shit about the needs of today's senior citizen. So who do you propose to stic up for them in this case?
I don't think that the majority of young people wouldn't give a shit about the elderly Bernadetta. I think most children would want to take care of their parents if given the chance, and it isn't like the elderly would be silenced altogether.
Woe! I guess I'll have to get involved in this discussion since I'm one of the older members of the zone.
Are we doomed? No, though our lives might change because of this stupid sharade they call a government shutdown. I'm sure the romans thought they were doomed when they saw the pagan hordes on the horizon. But we're here today which proves they weren't doomed.
One of the lessons we can learn from this board topic is that getting involved: learning about the ideals you profess, getting involved, and voting, are ways we can bring about the kinds of change we want.
By the way, one of the criticisms of the old is that we don't pay attention to the things that matter to us. To prove this wrong, I just heard that the bard site is back up. Check it out!
More to say later.
Bob
Ok, let me make something clear before anyone gets offended. I am not advocating the silencing of the elderly, or saying that they shouldn't have a voice in the civic process. I am saying that they should not solely be in control of the civic process. As it stands now, due in part to the baby boom, politicians direct their platforms at the elderly because those are the ones who vote, and thus the ones who elect them. I think that should stop. There are more young people than old, and we have a lot at stake also. We need to be voting so that politicians will start directing their platforms at us.
For example, I can almost garrantee that the first president who comes straight out and says "gays should be married, people should be free to believe in whatever they want, women should have equal pay for equal work, and the government should stay out of people's bodies and bedrooms", that person will have an easy road into office. I can almost garrantee that, because young progressive people will vote for that. Its just that no one does that because, for the most part, elderly people will not vote for that. (don't blame me if you're elderly and would vote for that, blame the demographic studies)
That is all I'm trying to say, so please do not start saying I want to silence old people or something like that. I don't. I think old people should be just as politically active as young people.
Most of them refer to themselves as Republicans, but a couple make more remarks about how strongly they support the Conservative approach. I remember on another topic cody said there is a difference between Republicans and Conservatives. I was one of the people who had the common misconception that Republicans and Conservatives go hand in hand, and the same thing goes for Democrats and Liberals. I'm sure I'll find this out eventually but I'd also like to know your opinions. Why is it that the Republicans seem to be done as a group as Cody said? What makes a Democrat a better candidate?
Let me address your questions individually starting with the second. Democrats are not better candidates than republicans. This was wonderfully outlined if you look at the fact that they just backed down from a minority vote and allowed the government to be shut down. Stop thinking in terms of parties. Think in terms of actual conservatism or liberalism.
That brings me to your first question. A republican is simply the name of a party, not an actual political stance. The definition of that term has changed drastically since their first president in 1860. Now the party would be unrecognizeable if you were to revive some of their old candidates.
For an example of what I'm saying consider these facts. The party which supported the freeing of the slaves, that was the republicans. The party which had the first black man in a commanding position of their platform, that was the republicans, more than sixty years before the democrats. Now, those roles are practically entirely reversed.
This can be traced back, by and large, to Ronald reagan and his "moral majority". That was when powerful religious leaders got their claws into the republican party and made it into the dying and diseased corpse of a political party which it is today. Think of a republican stereotype, and you can almost invariably trace it back to that time in its history; the 1980's for anyone who doesn't know when Ronald reagan was president.
Now, as for what is conservatism or liberalism, that is a bit more complex. Conservatism is the belief that the government should work for protecting the nation and its citizens, but not control them, or give them an advantage over another citizen. Think of them like having a muscle-bound guy sitting on your front porch to drive away robbers. He doesn't buy you food or clothe you, or pay for the rent and upkeep of your house, but he keeps you from being robbed.
Liberalism is the idea that the government exists to serve the citizenry, and to help them with their lives. Think of them as the wealthy parent who pays your rent and buys you food. Probably not going to keep you from being robbed, but you won't starve.
The thing that many people forget is that the term liberal or the term conservative does not apply to one party. For example, you can be a libertarian and be conservative. You can be a green party member and be liberal. You don't have to be a democrat or republican.
Think of it like this, you can be blind, but not be helpless and dependent. Some blind people are helpless and dependent, but not all. You have normal blind people, and you have helpless blind people. The term blind only denotes the fact that you can't see.
The trick is to figure out which one you are. Are you conservative, or liberal. Once you've figured that out, then study all the candidates and figure out which one fits your ideals the best. Usually it is not going to be the republican or democrat candidate because they are too tied down by party lines. Stop looking at who wants churches to be nonprofit, or who wants women to be able to have abortions, or who wants gays to be able to marry. Start looking at how they want to run the government. After that you can look at what social issues they stand on.
Does that help, or do I need to clear anything up? I know this is a confusing issue.
It's clear to me, but then it always was. We've had some tremendously good Republican presidents in the past. I'm a big Eisenhower fan even though I was born three years after he left office, but I've come to understand how measured and balanced his approach to the job was overall. My nephew thinks I hate Republicans because I'm always going on about how they're ruining things right now, and I have to say that I have to constantly stress that it's not Republicans I hate, but what they've become. I might vote for a moderate-to-liberal Republican if one stood a halfway reasonable chance at winning, but I simply won't vote for any Republican right now because I think the party itself is hostage to the extreme radical right, so I don't think anyone with sentiments and beliefs similar to mine can win at this time. As a gay male, how can I possibly vote against my own interests? As someone who believes in a woman's right to choose, how can I vote against my conscience? As someone who believes everyone should have the vote, how can I vote for a party where one contingent seems to be attempting to suppress that vote? And as an agnostic with a somewhat spiritual bent, how can I vote for a radical Christian agenda?
The way I see it right now, Obama, who is of my generation, can't possibly cave on this government shutdown thing because if he does, then he's setting each and every future president up to possibly face the same thing he did. And in the end, I don't se how this current ideation of the Republican party can possibly win. They've made themselves look foolish, petulant and rather scary to a lot of people. I predict a bloodbath next year, and I hope to contribute to it.
Thank you. I understand what you are saying especially because of those examples. I like the sound of the Conservative stand point, but I'll do some more research so I don't sound like a fool like I did earlier.
Hi Ryan (aka Forest Gunp.
In post 44 you asked, "I'm sure I'll find this out eventually but I'd also like to know your opinions. Why is it that the Republicans seem to be done as a group as Cody said? What makes a Democrat a better candidate?"
In my opinion, republicans are done as a party is because they've based their philosophy on hating (destroying) one person, Obama instead of any reasonable philosophy. They've also taken the wrong side in the class war between the haves and the have nots. "corporations are people", remember that?
In my opinion, a democrat would be more likely to be a better candidate simply because she isn't a republican. That doesn't make her a better person, it just means she's aspoused a more sensible political philosophy.
Just my opinion,
Bob
I’ve been away so haven’t posted on this topic, but will say Writer and Silver have stated my points nicely.
Ryan, I understand you don’t know what is required to become independent of the Government, so I’ll not jump you on that score, nor anyone else.
It requires years of planning, financial information, saving in the correct banking institution, and yes some luck.
Even working for a private company is exactly the same as working for the Government, and most people live on a paycheck scale, so when that paycheck stops, the resources stop as well.
Most people don’t have other sources of income, not because they are lazy, but many don’t understand how to generate this type of wealth, nor manage it.
In the stronger countries, Canada being one of these Shep, the Government is relied on, and is responsible for its people.
You could be totally rich and financially independent of your Government, but when it has issues, you will have issues, and that is how it works.
Sure, the congress and the people responsible for this can stand it, because their lives continue as they were, but if it last to long, even they will be effected, so trust it won’t.
It is really sad when the financially fortunate, no matter how they are fortunate do things like this and make the people that are not suffer even for a day.
This is a case of power struggle, and is petty.
It has happened more than once, and as posted, will again, but trust these people in control need to have it fixed, so when they get over themselves it will.
They need the people more than you think in order to be independent of their Government, and many of them aren’t actually.
They need clean water, fresh food, military protection, and that list goes on.
Just a note:
Chelsea, in an earlier post you state that you find it ironic that a Canadian is posting here and finding fault with some part of this topic. This is shortsighted and very telling, not of me but of you. First off, you'll notice that I'm mostly staying clear of the actual political angle, since not being American I don't know it as well as some Americans do and I know when to keep my trap shut. Second, I took issue purely with the dogpile mentality I saw after, and only after, Ryan said he wanted to back out of the discussion. If I had come in three days later and seen Ryan still carrying on more civil conversation I wouldn't have said a word, probably, as the issue would have essentially taken care of itself; I still don't think two wrongs make right, however, and my being Canadian has absolutely nothing to do with my right to call people out on this one way or another.
Now, with all that having been said, we have government assistance for the blind here in Canada and I'd be appalled if there was a government shutdown here for the reasons previously cited. I don't think it matters so much who's doing it; the fact is, part of the government is able to manage this sort of control move when it doesn't get what it wants. For that to happen anywhere sickens me, and I don't have to live it to sympathize.
Some people who use government money could probably do better, and could probably be a little more free of that burden. It's true. However, I'd say the fair majority of people on assistance due to a disability probably don't love having to accept it. They do it as a means to get somewhere else, or as a means to live independently till they get their heads on straight. I'm an example of this; I moved out at nineteen, lived with roommates for a few years, got a new place on my own, and have only recently after a sixteen-month trip to Alaska begun to really move forward. It's a long story, but I wasn't really doing very much with myself; I admit that I was one of those people who could have and probably should have gone farther than I did while on government assistance. My point is only this: even for people like me, who generally mean well and who didn't really do what they should have, yanking government money, or dismissing us as undeserving, won't help us improve. This circles back to my earlier point, my first reason for posting in this thread to begin with. Once someone admits that their previous course isn't working and makes a move to correct it or go in a different direction, it is counterproductive to kick them. No, I don't believe Ryan needed (or needs still) to be told how much of an idiot he was. The fact that one's temper can get a little out of control and will cause someone to really highlight something they didn't like...well, I can understand that I suppose, though I'd not use it as airtight justification were I you. But the "you were wrong, so I have to tell you how big an idiot you were" mentality is the specialty of overzealous types everywhere...controlling parents, bullies, bad teachers, you name it. it kills interpersonal relationships of many kinds, and it serves no purpose at all except to make the accuser feel better about their own righteousness. And that's really all I have to say.
Greg, Bernadetta already cleared up why she jumped on Ryan, and if you read the other posts, you'd see that I agreed with her reasoning as to why he was jumped on in the first place. so, I have no idea why you felt the need to rehash something that was already covered.
This is what happens when you give an inch, and someone else goes a mile. Feel free to keep trying to reason but I don't see it working. It isn't necessary to kick a dead horse, but I guess it gives some a sense of power. For the record, I don't think he was addressing what Bernadetta was saying. The reason why I called you out Chelsea was to prove that I wouldn't allow myself to be called out unnecessarily. Bernadetta had a reason, but you just did it because you could. Don't try and tell me that you were trying to make your own argument, because as demonstrated on many other topics, you did the same exact thing, and you will continue to do it. I'm not going to try and tell you to stop, but I will not take it from you without responding back. Now, if you will excuse me, I will step off of this soap box and continue working on my anger management counselling assignments.
I brought this back up, to an extent, because I wanted to debunk your silliness involving my citizenship, and the irony it may or may not entail. You have a seriously screwy definition of irony, I'm afraid. Please, please read what I write instead of getting a sentence or two and trying to damn me with it. I also took the opportunity to make some statements, though not too many and not too strong, about the actual issue. I did also acknowledge what Bernadetta said and did, which you'd also have known if you'd read what I wrote.
That's it, that's all.
Hey, I'm just posting at this point because I'd like to disassociate myself from the drama that this topic has become. Namely, I'd like to disassociate myself from the chelsea-greg-ryan drama.
Chelsea, i'm glad you found my arguments favorable, but to be fair, you did add more fuel to the fire without really adding anything constructive. I made my arguments and I made my case for doing so after word. You just added your two cents by saying you agree and then calling someone an idiot and whatever else. I'm just distancing myself from this because I, unlike you, would rather argue when necessary, when I have a good reason to do so and when I can defend my arguments--and not for the sake of calling someone names and calling someone out.
Notice, I didn't call ryan an idiot. I was more creative about my argument and doing so without being spiteful. I'm not one for political correctness, but to call someone stupid, useless or whatever else is beyond me lately. I'd rather drive my point home without letting obvious and most usually unnecessary insults get in the way. Doing so, in my oppinion is petty and only detracts from the argument on hand.
So, it's nice that you agree with me, but you and I argue differently for completely different reasons, so I'm making it known that my comments and yours are not two peas in a pod.
Sometimes the peanut gallery can be more vicious than the actual debaters, kids. Whatta ya know. lol
Also, I'm not sure Canadians dont' have a right to voice their oppinions on what's going on in the US these days, even though greg wasnt' even doing that. The United States has always been known for two things:
1, for being in the spotlight,
and 2, for being the primary advocate of freedom of speech and oppinion.
So what if a canadian has an oppinion on what's going on here politically. They dont' live here, they don't pay taxes here, simply put, they're not involved in any way that would affect you or me, so why's it so bad if they voice their thoughts. We're so public with our problems, triumphs, etc, the whole world is watching. It's a bit petty to say, well you dont' live here so you shouldn't contribute to the discussion. the US practically makes our affairs everyone elses business. foreigners wouldnt' be human if they weren't inclined to say something at some point.
We, as a nation, make everyone else's problems our business as well, and all we ever care about is our own american perspective. Our own american idealism. So what if greg had voiced his ideas. It would've given us, Americans, an insight into foreign perspective. Maybe if we listened a little more, both to the average american as well as to some of the outside perspectives, we wouldnt' find ourselves in such a mess as a country as often as we have been.
Thank you, Bernadetta. I can respect what you've said and done here. I'm sorry I've contributed to drama though. Sometimes my idea of calling out stupidity when I see it trumps my idea of keeping something on topic. I'm not perfect. I'm not calling your contributions stupid, mind you.
I have to say that post 55 was spot on when it comes to listening to other people's perspectives. May I add also that on or about Oct. 17, the debt ceiling crisis will have to be revisited, and that if we don't solve it properly and in the spirit of true patriotism by doing what's best for our nation rather than some political agenda, we could bring down the entire world with us into an economic morass? So, I do think the rest of the world does have an interest in what we do and how we do it.
We all contribute to drama sometimes. Me included.
and And in all fairness, looking back on the posts in this topic, I see that Chelsea never called anyone an idiot or useless, so in the interest of having that pointed out later on, I say, I stand corrected.
Are we adding words to people speeches Writer? Smile. Just had to ask.
apparently so, Wayne.
that's quite easy for most of these folks to do, as they often read into my posts what they want to, rather than the message I'm actually conveying.
in post 27, for example, I said that I wasn't attacking Ryan's worth as a person, and I meant just that. believe me, if I was, everyone would know it.
Nero fiddled while Rome burned.